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Episode Summary

Host Josh Brewer starts his journey throughout the different stages of the design lifecycle at the very beginning — research. Sana Rao, VP of Product & Design at Peanut, explains how questions drive her research process. She tells us the perfect time to start research and when you know you’re done.

Episode Notes

By Design is a show about the process of designing exceptional digital experiences. In each episode, our host, Josh Brewer, dives deep into a specific stage of the design lifecycle with an industry leader. Our hope is that hearing their insight can help us shape a better future for design. Sana Rao, VP of Product & Design at Peanut shares what she knows about research.

• Sana’s website
• Sana on Twitter
• Sana on LinkedIn
• Found Poems
• Peanut

If you’re interested in improving the design process at your organization, see how Abstract can help.

Transcript

Josh: Welcome to By Design, a show about the process of designing exceptional digital experiences. I'm your host Josh Brewer. And in this series, we will look at the different stages in the life cycle of designing digital products. Each week, we'll hear from experts with an intimate understanding of a particular stage, what has, and hasn't worked for them and how we might all apply these insights in order to shape a better future for design.

Josh: What better place to start talking about the life cycle of design and research, if you've ever taken a digital design class, you know, that the process is supposed to start with some kind of research, understanding who your customers are, what challenges they face, and then designing the optimal solution for them.

Josh:  But that doesn't always happen. Does it companies often research in too late or simply use it to confirm their initial hunch when really maybe another solution would have been work better? Sana Rao has all of these approaches play out at companies like Apple, Twitter, and Deliveroo. And now at Peanut, a new social network for women through all stages of motherhood.

Josh:  Where she is emphasizing the power of research. She's going to tell us how early stage research can mitigate risk, how, who does it, and when can impact the way companies interpret the results of that research and her wish that more people would ask themselves if what they're developing can actually add meaning to people's lives. I started by asking Sana to tell us a little bit about herself.

So Sana, tell me a little bit about yourself.

Sana: Yeah, where do I even start? So my name is Sana. I live in London. I've been in product design space for the last, let's say like over a decade, more than a decade. I started out my career in India, way before digital was even a thing. I didn't even have a computer through most of my education.

Sana: So we were still like drawing and pasting and putting all those beautiful black and white compositions together. I studied at this place called National Institute Design, which was set up by Charles and Ray Eames  in India. So still very like very Bauhaus conceptual design thinking, and then did a bit of graphic design in India and went and did my MFA in the school of visual arts in New York.

Sana: Which is really where I got a lot of the connections and the, the tools that I'm kind of using every day in my profession now. Fantastic program. It was probably one of the best decisions I've ever taken. It was like, we didn't really learn how to do any like interfaces or anything, but it really made you think about not only just business models and strategy, but also how do you put wires together to make computing happens?

Sana: So the whole kind of concept from beginning to the end, so you're like essentially like an entrepreneur coming out of that program. The best kind of study you need to go start a company.

Josh: Well, I was just going to ask, it seems between kind of the ethos and background of an Eames driven education combined with this, to use your words, entrepreneurial design approach.

Josh: It seems like a really amazing blend and sitting here listening to you. It feels like a really full spectrum way to have come into design. Are there anything that stands out to you that really you feel like as you've gone into your career, you look back and you say, Oh, I'm so thankful that I had that piece of education or that experience during my age.

Sana: Absolutely. I think one of the things, as we're talking today about research and worth talking about when one of the courses we had in, in SVA, Which I'm forever thankful for was this, this course called entrepreneurial design. And it was literally just like a course that was run in union square and venture capital firm.

Sana: And basically it taught us how to design and start a company in public, and do it in a way that it was the whole brief was like, you have to earn a thousand dollars in a month and go. And so all we had to do was like, all we had at our disposal was like, literally make it so like real time research and like real time.

Sana: And literally just like party of one making stuff, putting a landing page out there, seeing if people were like ready to part with their credit card information and like make a, make a company as a student so that you earn your rent essentially.

Josh: Amazing. I feel like that almost should be core curriculum for any young person that's coming up today, coming up today.

Josh: Literally just that one little course could shape a whole generation of entrepreneurs.

Sana: Yeah. I mean, I think being able to understand how powerful networks are. And reach people, get feedback quickly and work on anything that is self-sustaining. Life-changing.

Josh: Do you have a hobby or a practice or a passion outside of design that kind of keeps you sane?

Sana: Oh my God. So many. I always say like I'm a designer on the side and I'm like, I would say that I am first and foremost, a poet. I spend a lot of my time in the poetry community. And it's so divorced from the tech community, which is just absolutely lovely. It's just such a breath of fresh air because the priorities and the things that people think about and like community in that space is so different from the tech space and the design space.

Josh: Yeah. Thank you for sharing. I didn't know that poetry was one of your passions. I have two questions. One. Have you published anything that we might be able to go read.

Sana: Yeah, I've just started kind of submitting up more to journals, but I actually run a poetry subscription.

Josh: Of course you do.

Sana: Which is actually like it, it came out of that course entrepreneurial design course. I ran it for a year and it was like getting too big for me at that point. Shut it down. But last year I kind of restarted it. It's called Found Poems. So if you just go to foundpoems.com, every two weeks I do a subscription newsletter and curate a poem. And  I've been able to get a bunch of really famous poets to read out a few words of their own, or write about some poem that they find lovely.

Sana: And the whole point is making poetry more accessible to people because I know a lot of people in my life who like look at poetry and go, this is not for me. This is too dense or this is too intellectual, but actually, I believe it's for everyone and want to make it more accessible for people.

Josh: I absolutely love that one last question before we really kind of dive in, how do you stay curious?

Sana: Well, how do I stay curious? I think, I just generally actually, especially because now we're not in the workspace and we're not spending our entire day consumed by the workspace itself, like I found much more space to do other things that keep me curious and keep me motivated.

Sana: I think, previously, it was so much more like your time was around the nine to five or the nine to six. And now there's these like little moments of curiosity and motivation or joy that you can squeeze in between meetings or between things that you're doing, which I actually really enjoyed, but I think poetry.

Sana: To me it's, is that source of curiosity and inspiration. And the reason I got into it is, it helps you make connections that otherwise that you can't or articulate things that you can't. And so I just feel like I'm always, I literally have a tattoo with the word dream on my back because it's so essential to the way I operate.

Sana: And it's a little bit naive as well, but I feel like you can't really create anything as a designer or envision anything as the designer, if you're not curious, or if you're not dreaming about a particular feature that doesn't exist yet.

Josh: I could not agree more. That is a beautiful way to frame that. And I can see the line or the thread between the poetry that you, you love and that being a source of continual renewing in that curiosity.

Josh: And I love that. I love that idea as poetry as curiosity. That's that's a beautiful idea. So let's talk about research. We're talking about the design life cycle here on this podcast, and it's hard to say that there's a phase. That is just research and it feels a little naive to try to box it in to a specific, well, check that off the list.

Josh:  We did that and now we can ignore it and kind of move forward. But when I've thought about research, when I look at the design lifecycle, there's so many questions that kind of come up for me. And I know there's so many experiences people have had with research or without research, probably more accurately.

Josh: When we talk about it in the context of the design lifecycle, what comes to mind for you right away? Like what's the first thing that kind of pops into your head?

Sana: I think the biggest thing that for me, and actually that I've in my last role, I actually managed researchers as well, even though I'm not a trained researcher.

Sana: And I think the biggest thing for me, that research is like invaluable. Like it's just mitigating biases. We have so many biases and anyone who's not a trained researchers it's easy to think that you can go in and do a research and do a survey and get some answers. But essentially you're not trained to  do it in a way that doesn't introduce bias into systems, that you're essentially just doing a validation exercise rather than like actually taking that curiosity as we talked about. What is actually the answer that you're trying to seek rather than what is the result you want?

Sana: And that you've already pre-decided is what you want. So I think the bias bit is something that you can't really get rid of it in any other way.

Josh: Absolutely. The challenge, I think we all face is recognizing that we are bringing bias into what we do. I mean, I think it's part of being a human being and in some ways, some of those biases can be good.

Josh: It can be bad, actually. I think they're neither. They just are. Yeah. And it's, it's our own awareness of them that I think is, is the challenge. It's something that is much bigger than just product design. I think, you know, existing in society in the world that we live in in 2021, I think requires us to examine our biases.

Josh: And in research, I love what you just said, this idea of not coming in and trying to just look for confirmation, which I think that one is probably the single hardest thing to avoid. I can look back at early parts of my career. And if you got introduced to research through user testing, Then, like in a lot of ways you are, you're just trying to make sure that what you built makes enough sense.

Sana: You're just trying to confirm that you got the right, the answer versus that true curiosity, which centers around the other person's experience. Yeah. So, wow. I didn't know that we would jump straight to bias, but I'm really glad that you brought that up. What are some common misconceptions? That you've encountered in your career around research.

Sana: It could be from designers themselves or from, you know, stakeholders and other folks in the process. Yeah. I mean so many, I think interestingly, through all the different spectrum or life stages of a company, you always have many different preconceptions or misconceptions also depends on how previously, as you said, like people have interacted the research before and they bring that baggage into their, their roles and think that this is what research is for, like in late stage companies.

Sana: Things are so process-defined that like people have this misconception, that research is always too late. Because they'll go away and do this like whole thing. And then by the time they come back, we've already moved on in early stage companies. They're thinking about research as a luxury because they're like, we need to move fast and we don't have the resources, the space to do that.

Sana: Unless research is always there from the very beginning, there's always an excuse, because obviously it is time consuming to go and look at it from a point of like open-ended questions towards the user and really understanding their life and how the product or the design you're doing fits into their life rather than the other way around.

Sana: And it, it obviously throws a lot of things to the wayside if you've already planned your entire year or the next three years as a lot of companies do already. So yeah, I think like those biases or those like misconceptions exist in all stages.

Josh: Yeah, I've definitely, I've been in startups most of my career. And a lot of times it fell to myself or possibly the product manager I was working with, it was up to us. If we were going to do research, it was, it was on us, right. That inertia of a startup that is breakneck speed to just validate whether or not you've got some level of product market fit. I think.

When I look back on my whole career, the places where the research increased that confidence was early, early, early on before the thing has like become mature or has taken on enough of its own kind of earned inertia.

Josh: Yeah. I feel like the curiosity that you're you're calling out is something that folks in every part of the business. Not just, you know, not just in design are served well, if they take that mindset, if they take that approach.

Sana: There is no better way. Right. Especially in like companies that are bigger and you're so used to like a way of moving. That's more like you're building on top of a product that's already been existing for a while.

Sana: So you're not like redesigning anything or shaking things up. There's no better way to like, Get into a room, look at the way that users are actually interacting with the product and what purpose or job it's fulfilling in their life to suddenly like actually feel connected to the mission or realize how far you are from that mission. Because otherwise you can just get into that, we're just iterating and AB testing. And just that  thing that happens where you just fall into that trap of working that way.

Josh: That's a really interesting segue into potentially discussing the different points in the life cycle where research becomes really valuable.

Josh: I feel like you just articulated that moment, where there is something in the wild, you have customers using it on a regular basis and you really need to be looking at the data. The data is arguably the very first chunk of the research process that you need to comb through and evaluate. Have you seen that data be interpreted well in your career, have you seen it interpreted poorly what contributes to kind of like either misunderstanding or like really finding an insight in that data?

Sana: Yeah, that's a good point. I think it's, I don't know for better or worse, I've always found that company's ability to interpret that data correctly has largely dependent on who's presenting that data and how early on research was a part of the company's like ecosystem. So Deliveroo, which was the company I worked at before actually research was so fundamental. And so early on I think it was like a part of the company when the company was 30 people or 20 people, which meant that no one later on ever even questioned that there's always going to be this data presented to us. And we have to take that into account. Whereas I've been in companies before where researchers that add on and comes on so much later that it always becomes like, Oh, this is just one of the data points. And it's up to us, whether we want to account for it or not.

Josh: Right. And I don't know about you, but I've absolutely lived that I've been that person, you know, admittedly, that's looked at it and said, okay, cool. That like, that's enough confirmation. We're going to go with the thing that we're already, you know, 10 steps down the path on, you know, we didn't see anything that causes us to think that we might be wrong.

Josh: So. We're going to dead sprint forward on it. And I agree with you deeply about the earlier that research becomes part of the foundation of the culture in the company, the more effective. It becomes not just to the product, but I do believe to the way that the company operates and the way that it thinks about the customer, the customer's journey, what the products are truly designed to do and who they intend to serve. It's a powerful difference.

Sana: Yeah. I mean, I'll give you an example of, I literally was just having a conversation with a researcher just before this meeting, just before this call and, we were talking about two very different projects, one which she had done with us, which was around looking at an entirely new market.

Sana: That we might be moving into. And traditionally, I've never seen a researcher being involved in that conversation. You do like surveys and market research, or you do, you will make a decision and you commit to it. But this is like amazing that, you know, I get to have the resource to involve someone in going, looking at like, what are these gaps in the market?

Sana: What are the gaps in a woman's lifecycle, right? Where they need community and the other part. That she was also has helped us do, is understanding what different types of users we have on the platform, which we just didn't have an understanding of from a qualitative perspective, we were like designing for power users, but like there were all these like five other types of users that we just hadn't developed in terms of nuance to design properly for them.

Josh: And I feel like that's, something that comes with a bit of maturity and a product and in an organization I've thought about this recently and realize that. In a lot of ways, there are whole segments of our population, you know, customer population that kind of just get what we give them.

Josh: Yeah. Because they don't quite get high enough on the ideal customer profile scale. And I think research is one of those most useful tools to begin to uncover that nuance or that difference what happens when. Research ends up contradicting the brief or the held assumptions that are baked into the, initiative that's in flight.

Sana: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think again, it depends on like how I'm empowered research is in the organization. As you said, I've I have been in organizations where like research will come back and say, well, this is not true. What you, what you're going on with the hypothesis, but people just keep charging forth. But I think I actually have been, when I was a leading consumer, group at Deliveroo, we used to do this thing where we would, we did a benchmarking study every quarter to see how people were using it. And as a part of that one benchmarking study, the, one of the studies came back with a very fundamental flaw in the system that the entire product was designed in.

Sana: And it was purely because. A different person was going in, but different questions that I've never been asked before. And on the back of that, essentially, like I won't go too deep into it, but it came back with saying that the whole product is built on a premise of a different scale than the product is now, which basically meant that users couldn't find what they were looking for because the scale was entirely different.

Sana: And on the back of that, we actually went on a massive campaign through to the C-suite and the execs to actually redesign the entire consumer product.

Josh: That is an incredible story. Did you find much reception as you went into the C-suite and as you were lobbying in this campaign, how was that received?

Sana: It was, I'm not going to lie. It wasn't easy. I think specifically, because the food delivery market, there's a lot of seasonality. And we were going into the peak season, which is fall and saying, we're going to redesign everything. Tiny bit of anxiety I'm guessing was, was present. It was a lot of conversations, but essentially like having very clear data and consistent data from like, have having interviewed 30 people, 40 people qualitatively, but also quantitatively, a large subset of people.

Sana: And coming back and saying all of these routes point to this problem. And if we don't fix it now, it's going to get even harder as we scale was I think that this last bit of argument that actually. Got us to that point.  

Josh: Fantastic story. Thank you so much for being willing to share it.  I imagine being in the C-suite and hearing some of that, you know, the initial reaction is like a, oh shit.

Josh: Yeah. Maybe a little bit of disbelief. How could we have gotten here? And you also said something really, really important that I want to highlight that it was both the qualitative and the quantitative,

Sana: Especially with quantitative, actually. Like I've seen that so many times where people are A/B testing and it's so easy to make whatever narrative you want to make out of that, those numbers.

Josh: Oh man. I feel like I want to just take that soundbite that you just said, and then. Just blast the heck out of it, because that has also been my experience. All right. So I'd love to talk a little bit about this connection between research and the brief. I've had a couple of conversations where folks have referenced the brief as one of the key ways to mitigate risk.

Josh: Now, also see and hear in what you're saying, that research, regardless of the phase that you're in. I think arguably is a vehicle to mitigate risk. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? How do those two things? What's the interplay between research and de-brief.

Sana: Great question actually very, very timely. I was literally just putting together a brief this morning about a kind of new product space where obviously anyone who's in the social space being at is in social space at the moment. So we know what's what's happening within the social space and has happened within the social space. And the whole premise of peanut at the moment is that we're building a different kind of social network or social space, which is safe, safety first. And obviously that means there are a lot of unknowns in that, in that space. No, one's really done that or crack that before, because no, one's really started thinking about safety and there've been thinking about it from a reactive point of view.

Sana: So every product brief that we've been putting together, we've been literally putting the unknowns in there. The risks in there. How a product that you are building could be weaponized in there, which is not something that previously I have, I don't have any experience of like ever thinking about those things before.

And actually those are the things, those are the key points where it research comes in, where like it's unknown. We can always go and ask the question about, is this something that you're going to use in your life, but it's very difficult to ask a question around how can this be used very badly.

Sana: So this is where I feel like the exploratory research where you do the diary studies and that kind of work actually feeds into it where you're like the self-reported research will never really help you uncover how things can go badly and how you can kind of like mitigate those, those risks. But doing that study and the research of like, understanding how this stuff can be weaponized and how people are using it on a day-to-day basis and like seeing how they're using it, instead of how they're saying they're using it is something that we're actually like really counting for that. And the brief, I'm not going to lie and say that we're doing it a hundred percent of the time for every product, but the bigger ones that we know are going to fundamentally change the product or create new behavior, it's like absolutely essential for that.

Josh: And you just called out the things that change behavior. And I, I really resonate with that a lot. There's so much of the work that I can look back that I've been involved with, that the concept of behavior was rarely framed in the way that you're framing it. It was rarely framed in how do we protect the user?

Josh: How do we create the ideal experience for them, for them not the ideal experience for us, for the business. Right. And I think it's exacerbated immensely in the social space. Yeah, admittedly, I mean, you and I both worked at Twitter at different points in time, and I can definitely think back to early periods where I think some of us started really having the dawning realization that, Oh my God, what we are doing is shaping behavior. We are, you know, the placement of an icon. We'll literally shape the behavior of millions and millions of people.

Sana: The medium is the message, right?

Josh: It absolutely is. And we're now kind of dealing with more than a decade of this kind of like social, digital, social life that we live. And it's exciting to me to hear you all taking the approach that you're taking.

Josh: Let me ask you a little bit about the size or the stage of the company. And how that actually impacts research. And I feel like you've kind of touched on it lightly a couple in a couple of the answers so far, but does the size of the company, does that make it easier or harder for research? Talk to me a little bit about your experience with that.

Sana: Yeah. Absolutely. I think in terms of funding and resources, it's definitely easier when the company is really big, but I think, and this is one of the reasons why I've gone through my entire career, I've gone earlier, earlier in the life stage of a company and, you know, there's, you're, you're the CEO. So, you know, like earlier means that you actually are making the decisions rather than reacting to the decisions, which is when research is.

Sana: So much more crucial and important because then as I, as we talked about, like research is not validating or trying to change decisions that have already been taken, but as actually you're making decisions informed based on that research. And you're, you're essentially building something from scratch on the basis of that rather than what I have seen in earlier companies where research, but are much later stage companies and research was just doing the work of like being the advocate for the user.

Josh: Right. Have you seen other parts of the organization get either energized or more involved in the research process once it kind of becomes a thing and which, which ones do you, do you see really kind of like suddenly having that light bulb moment?

Sana: Yeah. I mean, I would say like the builders, the people who are actually building the platform, the engineers and the designers, and I think it's always like, there's this. mIsconception or like this expectation that designers will be involved in research and it's optional. For other parts of the company or other parts of the team for them to be involved in research. And what I've found is like the engineers actually get most jazzed about being involved in research process because they're building that stuff.

Sana: And the moment they see how, what they're building is being used, you can see those like light bulbs go off. And I saw that at Deliveroo, I've seen that at Peanut, it's like the most magical moment.

Josh: I have had the same experience and I did not prompt her. I promise everybody I've seen the same thing. And I think it also probably speaks to the quality of engineers that you and I have had the privilege of working with.

Josh: I think, great engineers, great product people innately care about the thing that they're creating and to see someone's struggle, to see someone do something and have it not actually accomplish what they had hoped, and also what you, as the person, you know, designing or building it had expected would happen.

Sana: You know, the first couple of times it was probably a little hard. If I go back far enough, it's that, that painful moment that, Oh, no. I have to go undo a bunch of my assumptions and, and reset my expectations. The engineers that are coming to mind from your story that I can think back on. There's been cases where they were watching an interviewer user study happening, saw something and immediately we're changing it in the code.

Sana: Like real time. And I've seen that be one of the most profound ways to affect a larger part of the organization, especially in the product side of things. Yeah. What in your experience has been the most effective way to, to bring research forward, especially to kind of the executive stakeholder crowd, the folks who aren't nearly as close to, to the metal, if you will, in, in building it, but obviously have a huge investment into it?

Josh: What makes that successful in bringing it to that audience?

Sana: So I can talk about Peanut, because I think when I joined Peanut there, wasn't a lot of involvement. Uh, from research, very small team, the whole company is like about 30 people. And one of the first things I did was like hire a consultant who was a researcher who was.

Sana: So polished and so senior and knew what they were doing, because I think the biggest reservation that the execs will have is that when you're 30 people, we don't want to hold anything for this project to happen. And we don't want, we don't want things to be like thrown,  which we're not expecting.

Sana: So yeah. The way that I framed, it was like, well, this is a person who's going to come, help us know better about the user. And if we get some insights from it, we'll use it. But this is essentially for our own understanding of the user. So instead of it being like this, person's going to come and test the work that we're shipping and tell us if it's landing right or not.

Sana: Because early stage that's a little bit like nothing should slow us down. So this person came in and delivered an amazing research study and helped us understand the user. And the moment you have someone who can deliver something that suddenly people understand, Oh, now I get it. Like, I know that there are five types of users now that use, and I didn't have that.

Sana: And then suddenly you have a much more leave it to get people in.

Josh: You just said something that really, really resonated with me. I heard you saying how critical storytelling is because what you just shared was bringing a narrative forward that people can understand and digest your example that you gave was, you know, there's, there's now five types of users, you know, and if I'm an executive sitting in this meeting and I, in my mind, I, I only operate off of this one persona that I've come to believe is, you know, ubiquitous to our users.

Josh: You just gave me a new framework. You gave me a new story that I then can incorporate. And, u m, I think research is very much a narrative, uh, or can be a powerful narrative and for the human condition, what do we resonate with? We resonate with stories, right? And so I'm hoping that our listeners can anchor in on that one and take that away with them.

Sana: I really think, you know, one of. The strengths of design and what makes for really effective design and all include research in here is really the ability to tell the story and let people see something that they didn't see before. But it's also one of the super powers that I think design kind of brings to the table.

Josh: That was awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I'd love to talk a little bit about the future. Let's kind of like imagine five years from now and. I'm wondering, and I'm asking each of our folks that I'm talking with to imagine with me, what, what does it look like five years from now design, but really the design life cycle, the practice of going from nothing to a shipped product.

Josh: Do you have any ideas, any thoughts of like, what's it look like that's different than it does today? Five years from now?

Sana: I think five years from now. I hope I'm hoping, and we're starting to see that already now, but I'm hoping that a lot of like, Processes that people took for granted. Would we would know that like they have served us in a particular way, but haven't served us in other ways, like we've talked about with, you know, early days, Twitter or Facebook people going in with this understanding of what social could do, but no one really had a clear understanding of like, What network effects are and how that can unleash onto the politics of the world or any of those things that we're seeing now, hopefully five years from now, we'll be a lot more informed as we are now.

Sana: And we're starting to have more of these conversations that aren't bias in the design ecosystem and risks, and like weaponization into the system. Like, we'll be a lot more understanding of what, what can happen if you don't do the work upfront.

Josh: Absolutely agree. All right. Last, but not least. If you could impart one bit of wisdom. To all of our folks who are listening, what would you like to say?

Sana: Ooh, that's a, that's a big one. What would I like to say to people? I think just for me, what, I'm, what I'm seeing more being in social this time around compared to what I was, I was thinking in social years ago. Or just the space of technology and how design is being used every day is that the market like the market is so saturated and people are just, people are tired of using technology and having to use technology every day, because right now, especially there's, that's the only way that they can connect with other people.

Sana: And so for me, the biggest piece of wisdom that like, I think about all the time and I would like other people to think about is like, what are you developing that can actually add meaning to people's lives? And if that's not happening, then maybe it's not needed. And I think it's a hard spill to swallow up and everyone wants to be an entrepreneur and everyone wants to make it in the world, but I feel like it's getting more and more critical to only make space for things that actually add meaning and add connection and add value rather than purely just because you can.

Josh: I resonate with that sentiment quite deeply. I. Have great hope that we are at the beginning of a journey that will lead to much more decision-making that is in favor of what you just shared. I'm going to add my energy to your well-wishes and your wisdom that you're sharing with everyone today. Sana, thank you so much for spending time with us.

Sana: I really, really. Can't express my gratitude deeply enough. This has been a delight and hopefully we'll get to chat again. Thanks Josh. They've got were deeper than I was expecting, but I loved it. Awesome. Take care.